I recently had the pleasure of hosting an Instagram Live with Malka Older (which you can rewatch here) to discuss her newest book, The Mimicking of Known Successes. We had a fantastic conversation about science fiction, queer representation, and how good it feels when “queerness” isn’t the center of the story, life is.
Below is an edited transcript of our conversation for your reading pleasure.
Dannie Lynn Fountain (00:00): Hello. Hello. I am so excited. We are doing an Instagram live with an author of a book that I read last year that's coming out in March. Just waiting for them to join us. There they are. Awesome! Hello. Hey,
Malka Older (Author, The Mimicking of Known Successes) (00:43): Great to see you.
DLF (00:45): You too. Thanks for hanging out. I know this is dinner time for you, breakfast for me, so.
MO (00:52): No worries.
DLF (00:54): I was just saying, excited to chat about your book. We will also save this live afterwards, so that folks can catch it later and share to stories and all that good stuff as well. So, I would love to start honestly by having you introduce yourself, having you introduce the book, and talk a little bit about your journey into writing and then we can dig into those questions I had.
MO (01:22): Sure! So my name is Malka Older. I'm the author of a number of books starting with Infomocracy, which is a sci-fi political thriller that came out in 2016. And then there are two more books in that series, Null States and State Tectonics. And I have a, a collection of short stuff, poetry and short stories called and Other Disasters. And then my new book, which is this novella, The Mimicking of Known Successes, which comes out this March. I am also a sociologist and I worked in international aid and development for many years. But the, the whole time I always wanted to be a writer really. So I'm very happy to be here now. <laugh>.
DLF (02:03): Yeah. I honestly, you can tell as an academic, like the, my academia like weaves it into my writing even if I'm trying to write fiction. And I feel like the same is true for you, just the lens with which you approach this sci-fi fantasy, futuristic political space. You get a splash of your experience that I think just makes everything so much better. <laugh>.
MO (02:29): I think that's really true. I mean, I, you know, when I was in college I wanted to just be a writer and I wanted to publish right out of college. And I tried. And honestly, I mean, as lovely as that probably would've been, I'm really glad that I was forced to do other work for a while because it has given me both like so much more experience and experiences and like different things and different frameworks, uh, to bring to my writing. And also just a lot of confidence about having done another career and like, it's okay cuz writing can be, it can be really tough.
DLF (03:02): Exactly. No, a hundred percent. I think there's so much more depth. It's almost that conversation of do you go to grad school right after undergrad or do you get work experience first? I feel like writers who have that like lived professional or fun experience under their belt just brings such a different flavor. Oh, I love it. Well let's, let's go ahead and dive into these questions because I am so nosy. I, got sent a copy of the mimicking of Known Successes and admittedly picked it up because it was a novella and then I was like, oh my gosh, read the entire thing in one sitting, like was so phenomenal. So I have some nosy questions, but my first question is, it's such a cozy read while also being a mystery, a thriller bit of a political commentary, bit of a like climate and how we think about our world commentary. How do you, when you're sitting down to write, how do you intersect those genres in a way that really is successful? Is that something that you're intentionally doing or is that something that just because of your background and your passion for stories just kind of happens?
MO (04:21): Thank you. That's a great question. And you know, this book, I started writing it in like late 2020. Okay. So it was a tough time. I really honestly made the decision of like, and, and it was, it was such a tough time too that I was doing a ton of comfort reading and rereading. And so, and I was thinking a lot about like how much, um, joy and, and escape, not just escape, but actually like pleasure, right. And joy that tho those those comfort books were re were bringing me. And seeing also a lot of people saying the same things on social media and among my friends. And so I like made the decision. I was like, look, I'm just, I'm gonna lead into it and I'm gonna write a book that is as cozy and comforting and joyful and pleasurable as I can. And I thought about all the different things and you know, a lot of my comfort reads are murder mysteries, which is kind of weird.
And I was trying to think about like, why is that? I think there's different reasons, but I think a lot of it has to do with like a very specific problem or puzzle that gets resolved. Yeah, that's, that's part of it. And then, you know, there's like the whole actual coziness of a, a warm space with good food when it's horrible weather outside and wear better to have horrible weather than Jupiter. And then like long train rides, <laugh>. And there was, you know, friendship and there was slow burn romance and I just thought of all these things and I'm like, I'm just gonna peg everything I can into this book and make it as cozy as I can. And then, you know, as I was writing it, I realized that there was this deep vein imminent that was very much about 2020, and early 2021, which was this, this tension between like, do we, do we just at all costs go back to before and some version, some imagined version of normal that existed before?
Or do we really lean into something that's different and new and painful at the beginning, but that we can work on to try and make better? And so that, that turned out to be a really deep theme in the book. But it, you know, by the time that I realized that I was already just loving the characters in the setting so much that it still felt cozy to me. So I hope that works for other people, that it's this, you know, that even when it's touching on some of these issues, it still feels like very comforting.
DLF (06:43): Yeah. Honestly, honestly for me, it came out in my review too that, you know, this is at its core a queer book on top of all of these other topics, but for once, it's not the only time, but for once the Queer Romance isn't the central plot point, it's almost, afterthought isn't the right word, but it's almost like an accessory to the story versus the central point. I really think it's great how you were able to structure the story in a way that sucks you in it's Sherlockian like with the, the persistent lever now of like the Enola Homes on Netflix and everything. It follows that vein but also does it clearly, which is so great. <laugh>. Yeah.
MO (07:33): I mean that was really important to me to, you know, I think normalize is just not happy enough a word, but like to have this relationship be something that was, you know, it's really important to the characters and it's, it's really, it's a relationship that develops over the book and like, there's, there's, it's, I think it's, it's not kind of the main plot, but it's a pretty important subplot, right? But I really wanted it to be, you know, very matter of fact about the queerness of it. And just there's, there's also one character who's, non-binary, although it's very subtle cuz there's just a very quick reference with neo pronouns, which are actually old pronouns cuz I just used the Chinese pronoun, which is indistinguishable orally. And, you know, there's a just a, I just, I want it to reflect the world that <laugh> that I live in, and the people that I know and the relationships that I have and see. And so yeah, that was really, that was really important to me for this book.
DLF (08:39): Yeah. It was, it was truly successful in my opinion. Another question for you. So without spoiling it, the mystery didn't wrap up the way I expected it to. And full disclosure, I'm someone who never solves a, a mystery in a book <laugh>. Like that's not a surprise. So maybe I'm the wrong person to talk about this, but do you find yourself leveraging the mystery direction that occurs throughout the book to serve the mystery itself? Or do you think that because of the shorter format of the book, that also is a way to move the story onto its logical conclusion in that shorter form?
MO (09:24): I mean, maybe a little of both, but I do feel like it's important with mysteries to have at least some misdirection and at least some, you know, you want it to be a puzzle that, that keeps you interested. And especially with this, you know, I was very much building off the homes in model, and so I wanted to have some of that sort of mystery that you see in homes where there are clues, but they're not necessarily clues that you're expected to be able to put together as a reader. It's almost more of a suspense than like a, a true sort of solve this mystery the same time. And especially because it is also such a foreign world to us that there's some clues that Masa picks up that, you know, we not know in that world yet. You don't get explained <laugh> what, what she's able up on. But I did want it to be, you know, I wanted it to be suspenseful. I wanted it to have that aspect of these two people working together to solve something in ways that made sense, at least, you know, as you learn them, even if you're not able to predict them.
MO (10:25): Yeah, and, and like I said, you know, that's definitely one of my comfort go-tos is a mystery that's sort of propulsive and interesting and has me wondering for a while, even if I can't solve it myself. It's part of what keeps me reading and takes me out of my head and takes me out of the what's ever going on in the world I'm in. So yeah, that was definitely a part of it.
DLF (10:44): Yeah. It, it does so well too. I, like I said, I picked up the book for the length of it and I was genuinely and like pleasantly comforted just by how well all of the elements worked together.
MO (10:58): So happy to hear that <laugh>.
DLF (11:01): Many of the technologies employed in the book don't exist yet, but also aren't very far off. Like aren't implausible are something that, like if someone was innovative in the next 10 years could totally be a thing. What are your thoughts on the proximity of technology in the novel? Do you feel like it helped us visualize ourselves more in the story? Do you think it also like helps compliment the futuristic element by adding a dash of realism? How do you think that that nearness, that proximity fits in versus, uh, other futuristic novels where the technology is unimaginable?
MO (11:43): Yeah, that's a really great question and it's something actually that I, I think about a lot also with my other series, which is, uh, nearer future than this. It's like 60 years in the future and there's some, I had a lot of fun coming up with some new technologies for that, but like the fundamentals of the book, the plot could really happen with the technology we have now. Hmm. We don't use it all the way it's used in the book. It's not employed personally as it is in the book, so there's differences, but like, it's not really far off. And for me that was really important in that book because, um, it's more of a social science book. It's more about like democracy and global geopolitics and I wanted to focus on that. This book, what was fun and interesting for me with the technology here is that the environment is so different.
Also people are com you know, the, the we, I don't talk too much about, uh, the settlement of Jupiter because at the time of the book they'd been there for several centuries already. Right. But it's clear that they came in a very desperate situation from Earth. And so they started at kind of a deficit where, you know, they, they had lived in a world with a lot of technology, but they couldn't necessarily bring all the resources or materials or knowledge that they needed in the moment. And then, you know, it's a totally different environment. So one thing in the book is that there's not a lot of long distance communications because I work totally different on Jupiter and I am, I am not an expert on Jupiter sadly, although I did try to do some research for this, but like, you know, it's possible that if we did actually move there, hey it would be super easy.
But my guess is no because the atmosphere there is super messy. So yeah, that was one thing to, to think about. And then on the other hand, you have access to an amazing store of gas to use for fuel and energy. Yeah. So like that is a total, you know, instead of, um, where we are now thinking about new technologies for generating energy, they really don't have to worry about that at all. So we have this really different situation in terms of both what's needed, um, what's available and um, what people are sort of aiming for. And so that was super fun to like sort of think about all the different technological areas and say, does this make sense there? Is this something that they would even want to spend time developing and, and what else would they have? And so one of, one of the results of that is that it does end up being, um, kind of homey and in the atmosphere as well. Like it's a bit gas punk because if you live on Jupiter, of course all your lighting is gonna be gaslighting because it's all right there. You just have to suck it up and light it. And so, and, and because there aren't, uh, long distance satellite or wireless technologies available, they're doing telegrams and they're doing other things that can be, um, physically connected. So that, that was also kind of fun to have a sci-fi environment that looked back at the past.
DLF (14:39): Yeah. It, and it's so interesting too because there are all of the elements of conservation happening as well in these like conversations, in the book about should that be expanded. There's this moment where they're talking about how like it had been considered to like end this conservation effort and like what the impact of that would be too. So there's so many of these topics that we're wrestling with now when the setting and the context is changed actually makes you kind of look at the conversations we're having now and go hmm, you know, fresh, fresh perspective on existing issues, which is really fun too.
MO (15:20): I mean that's, that's one of the things that I really think is, one of the strengths of science fiction or or other speculative fiction cuz a lot of fantasy does this really excellently as well. But something that, you know, you're reading the story and you don't recognize the setting because it's different. Right? Right. So you're like, oh, it's a different world and then suddenly you realize it's actually a reflection of your own world. It's just distorted enough so that you were able to get into it and form different opinions and have different attachments to the characters before you realized it was talking about your own time and place. So yeah, I think that's just a great function of speculative fiction is to give people that kind of fun house mirror that lets them see themselves and the time and the issues differently.
DLF (16:04): Yeah. So much of science fiction and fantasy is hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of pages and there's so much space to dedicate to world building when you write in the shorter format. I, I mean, I think excluding the acknowledgement it's 105 pages, how, how do you approach world building? How, how do you give us this beautiful story without spending 50 pages info dumping to get us caught up? I, I mean it's truly, I could never in my life write a novella because I want to give you all of this world knowledge that I don't know how you do it in the space of a novella.
MO (16:48): I honestly, I tend to write long, so it was kind of a surprise for me too. But it was also, I had written a bunch of stuff and I was like, I just wanna write something kind of shortish and like finish it and send it off and get it out into the world. And you know, I think that for world building, for me, one of the most important things, that I tried to do is put in a lot of little details that have nothing to do with plot that are not plot bearing at all, that are just like, oh, you know, something that you see out of the corner of your eye or something that happens and it's mentioned and like very briefly explained, but you don't need to know anymore cuz it's not actually important for what's going on.
And I think that those sorts of unnecessary details really help to make the world feel more lived in and more natural in that there's lots of stuff that, and, and I get them by just kind of thinking a lot about the world and noodling and sort of lying awake in bed and going, gosh, I wonder what they would do with the, what, you know, what design would they put for their school t-shirts or what kind of thing would they, gosh, they wear these atmospheres to help atmos scars to help them protect them from the harshness of the, the atmosphere that they've been able to control and their, their habitats. How would those be like a fashion thing or a study thing? And so I come up with all these details and then of course, you know, I saved some of them for the sequel <laugh> because there are, there are a lot and I did wanna keep it tight on this one. So
DLF (18:16): Yeah. And when you were describing the apartment when they're having that like very awkward, very sweet initial like, reconnect conversation, I, in my mind I could see the apartment and I was like, wow, this has to be like the coziest studio.
MO (18:34): Like I said, there was a lot of wishful thinking in this book. There was like, where do I wanna be right now? <laugh>. Yeah.
DLF (18:41): Yeah. So speaking of sequel, I don't think I even knew that there was a possible sequel. What is coming for their story, obviously mystery aside, but like what is coming for their future?
MO (18:55): So I I, you know, I thought of this always as kind of a, a mystery and very much a Sherlock Holmes style mystery. So Sherlock Holmes, obviously there are a ton of books and well stories really and novella's.
So I always kind of thought of it as a series of mysteries that would each be standalone but allow for me to continue developing the world and the relationships because those things are really important to me is to go in a sort of overarching and extended way. So, you know, I try to do that in the sequel, um, and to really <laugh> look around that world and go deeper. So, you know, one thing that I'm interested in, um, because the moons of Jupiter are quite close and they're very different from Jupiter, so there is a side trip coming.
And, um, there's a lot more thinking about the university and how it works because I find that university really fascinating and I kind of touched on it a little bit. Yeah. But there's a lot more I think to talk about in terms of how people study in this this future in this very, very different environment with very, very different goals for what they want to achieve with research and with academia.
DLF (20:18): Yeah. It was very, this probably wasn't your intention, this was the lens I read it through as an academic, but there was honestly like a lot of improvement on the university structure happened in the book. Just I think because of the different context, the different world folks were like a lot more able and brief focused on their research. You know, in our current model it's either you research or you teach. There's not a of space to do both successfully. And that was very different cause of the world context because of how much was unknown. Very cool.
MO (20:57): Yeah, I mean there's definitely I think a higher value placed on research academia in this world because they are in a place that they don't know very well and they have this goal that is seems almost impossible, which is to fix earth and get back there. Yeah. And so they don't know a lot about the planet they're on and they don't, I mean, they know some, they've been there, like I said, for hundreds of years, <laugh>, it's a very large planet and very different from where they came from. So there's a whole modernist faculty at the university, which is all about studying that. And then the really prestigious one is the classical faculty, which is all about studying Earth and um, in, in a lot of different ways, but particularly for the book important is, um, studying the EC colleges that existed, uh, before Earth got onto this path of, of destruction.
And figuring out like how do we fix the ecology? How do we make an ecosystem on earth that is stable and self-sustaining that we can then return? And so that is such a huge and important goal and the only way that they see that they can do it is to have really intensive research on it. And of course there, there is a hint, you know, in the book that, um, research can be its own trap, right? Yeah. So as, as anyone who has written a dissertation knows you can't make it too perfect. Yeah. Don't try to make it right. But there is, there's certainly like a higher value placed on academia and on people who are doing this intensive research and on giving them what they need. So that I do think is, is a really nice aspect to it.
DLF (22:31): Yeah. I think that's a successful thing too, thinking about like the new Buzz light, your movie that came out last year or the series the hundred, some of these other have to abandon earth but want to return to it stories, um, get stuck in a trap of earth being the end goal that the life in between is temporary. Whereas here it's almost, almost understood that returning to earth would be wonderful, but we can't let this intermediate life like pass us by as well. It's a lot more balanced versus some of the other stories where earth at all costs <laugh>. Yeah.
MO (23:14): I mean that was again, that was like really a reflection of kind of where we were in the midst of lockdowns and sort of like, you know, yeah. I mean I wish things were the way they were before in a lot of ways, but also, you know, first of all we wanna avoid the trap of going back to exactly the way they were because the problems came from there. You know, we wanna make, and when we have opportunities to make changes for the better, we want to grab them because it's, it's, you know, that's another thing that comes up in the book is like, sometimes it's a lot easier to start right after a break as opposed than to to turn something that's kind of okay. Right. So that's part of it. But also this question of like, well, you know, are we holding our breath for a year, two years?
What are we doing? Are we, are we, we've still, we're still living and we still have to find ways to improve the situations that we're in. As we think about, you know, if we do manage to go back to something like before, how do we make that better? How do we make it more resilient? This is my <laugh> disaster work and, and sociology coming back. How do we make it more resilient? How do we make it more robust? How do we make it more equitable? Because that does both of those things, um, and, and for everyone. Uh, so, you know, just trying to really push back on some of those facile divisions of like, oh yeah, we ruined the plan, but we'll just go back and, you know, we'll just fix it and then go back and everything will be fine. And we sh certainly won't ruin it again <laugh>, um, you know, or, or gosh we're gonna dedicate centuries and centuries, you know, of course people are gonna settle into where they are. People adapt and that doesn't mean you don't try to, you know, continue this project of trying to go going back. But I think it's really important to sort of see those, that tension.
DLF (25:00): Definitely. Yeah. How can folks who are watching this, support other than of course purchasing the book and getting excited for it to be out?
MO (25:18): Thank you. Yes, please. You can find me on Twitter, on Mastodon, on all basically everywhere you look <laugh>. And I'm pretty unique because of my name. So yeah, I mean look and I look forward to hearing from people who read it what you like, what you don't like your questions cuz I love talking about my books so feel free.
DLF (25:54): Amazing. Thank you so much for answering my burning questions about the book, this little, um, great book club of sorts and I can't wait to see the book In the Wild. Thanks for hanging out today.
MO (26:09): Thank you. They were wonderful questions and it was really a pleasure.
DLF (26:12): Amazing. Have a great night and everyone in the audience have a great day. You too. Bye.
FIN.
You can find The Mimicking of Known Successes and all of Malka’s books at all your favorite book retailers.